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No matter how long it lives and how old it grows, a cockroach will never discover a cure for cancer, find a way to reverse global warming, end world hunger or really do much besides scurry and carry disease. If left to nature, a fetus will grow and develop and has the potential to do all of those things and still have time to make a perfect grilled cheese sandwich at the end of the day.  

Potential is the difference here.

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At the same time as this may be true, all of those things are human endeavors, and a cockroach has no place dealing with such things. If potential is the difference, then consider the potential of what could happen if ALL humans were gone (no harm to the ecosystem), and consider the potential of what could happen if all cockroaches were gone (ecosystem could potentially fail).  

Just because humans depend on each other doesn't mean that any other animal sees it that way, and if we're going to discuss something as politically complex as abortion (or, more broadly, murder), IMO, it's unwise to take a stance so generalized as "it's always wrong" or "it's always okay", because that simply will never be the case.

For example, a 12 year old who lives in poverty is raped by her FATHER. She gets pregnant. The child will obviously have genetic deficiencies. Should she be able to have an abortion? Some people will say yes, and some will say no. But the only opinion that really holds any bearing on the situation should be the mother.

I guess I'm not necessarily arguing that I think abortion is morally alright, but I think that it is ignorant to place humans on a pedestal so high above other creatures so as to say that, in ANY situation, a human fetus is more important than a beetle.

A flip-side example, for the argument that abortion shouldn't be regarded as "always right" or "always wrong" is this: There is a sixteen year old girl with a family income of $500,000 annually. She has promiscuous unprotected sex and gets pregnant. She thinks a child would be stressful and would hurt her vagina. Should she be allowed to have an abortion?

Post edited at 8:56 am on July 18, 2008 by MotoMojo

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It is defenseless. And even if we're unable to easily identify with it does not mean it deserves to die. If something is not causing harm, you should not cause harm in return. Here, we'll define harm as "certain permanent damage" for clarity, as the various problems associated with pregnancy (morning sickness, et al.) are not considered harm here.

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Point, though, that I'm also not arguing the morality or immorality of abortion, just pointing out that it's fallacious to say that aborting a fetus is no different from stepping on a cockroach.

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Let yourself be enchanted,
You just might break through
To ever ever after

What makes the fetus "abortable"?

ForChrist

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Just Passing Through.

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What biologically changes as the child moves through the birth canal and into the doctor's hands to make it a living person?

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Post edited at 6:28 pm on July 18, 2008 by iinsurgent

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Quote: from ForChrist at 4:21 pm on July 18, 2008

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What biologically changes as the child moves through the birth canal and into the doctor's hands to make it a living person?

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The circulatory systems of a fetus and infant are different. There's the whole fetus not breathing thing, it's first breath changes the way the heart works. Until then, a fetus receives oxygen through the umbilical cord and placenta, and they use fetal hemoglobin which has a higher oxygen affinity than adult hemoglobin. It usually takes eleven/twelve weeks after birth for their body to fully convert to adult hemoglobin.
Biologically it's alive before then, too. But there's the difference.

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When does it's DNA change to make it a human from... whatever it was before?

FP

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Come away, O human child!
To the waters and the wild
With a faery, hand in hand,
For the world's more full of weeping than you can understand.

Pro-life

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The only question I would have about this is when does the fetus become a child? When does life begin? When is the child made in the image of God? What biologically changes as the child moves through the birth canal and into the doctor's hands to make it a living person? How do you define person? These are just some questions I would wrestle with.  

What makes the fetus "abortable"?  

ForChrist

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Usually after the second term do the brain waves and thoughts of a fetus become greater than those of someone in a vegetative state. But usually first trimester abortions are the norm. Second, much less so, and third are usually only done if the mother's life is in danger.

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Quote: from iinsurgent at 7:22 pm on July 18, 2008

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Quote: from ForChrist at 4:21 pm on July 18, 2008

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What biologically changes as the child moves through the birth canal and into the doctor's hands to make it a living person?

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The circulatory systems of a fetus and infant are different. There's the whole fetus not breathing thing, it's first breath changes the way the heart works. Until then, a fetus receives oxygen through the umbilical cord and placenta, and they use fetal hemoglobin which has a higher oxygen affinity than adult hemoglobin. It usually takes eleven/twelve weeks after birth for their body to fully convert to adult hemoglobin.  
 Biologically it's alive before then, too. But there's the difference.

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When does it's DNA change to make it a human from... whatever it was before?

FP

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The DNA doesn't change? It's a human at fertilzation.

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Exactly. And what do we call it when you kill another human being willingly? Oh, right. Murder.

FP

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Come away, O human child!
To the waters and the wild
With a faery, hand in hand,
For the world's more full of weeping than you can understand.

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Quote: from iinsurgent at 9:54 pm on July 18, 2008

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The DNA doesn't change? It's a human at fertilzation.

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Exactly. And what do we call it when you kill another human being willingly? Oh, right. Murder.

FP

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Quote: from FurryPanther at 9:05 pm on July 18, 2008

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Quote: from iinsurgent at 9:54 pm on July 18, 2008

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The DNA doesn't change? It's a human at fertilzation.

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Exactly. And what do we call it when you kill another human being willingly? Oh, right. Murder.  

 FP

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She asked what biological changes occur. I told her. I didn't intend to imply that undergoing those changes is what makes someone human.

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Even though I quoted you, that comment wasn't meant for you directly.

FP

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Come away, O human child!
To the waters and the wild
With a faery, hand in hand,
For the world's more full of weeping than you can understand.

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Quote: from iinsurgent at 9:54 pm on July 18, 2008

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The DNA doesn't change? It's a human at fertilzation.

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Exactly. And what do we call it when you kill another human being willingly? Oh, right. Murder.

FP

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Actually, that's what you call it when you kill another human being unlawfully:

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The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice

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- http://www.dictionary.com

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Let yourself be enchanted,
You just might break through
To ever ever after

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Quote: from FurryPanther at 12:05 am on July 19, 2008

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Quote: from iinsurgent at 9:54 pm on July 18, 2008

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The DNA doesn't change? It's a human at fertilzation.

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 Exactly. And what do we call it when you kill another human being willingly? Oh, right. Murder.  

 FP

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Actually, that's what you call it when you kill another human being unlawfully:

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The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice

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- http://www.dictionary.com

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The only reason abortion isn't legally murder is because a fetus isn't legally a human. Which is completely fallacious.

FP

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Come away, O human child!
To the waters and the wild
With a faery, hand in hand,
For the world's more full of weeping than you can understand.

I will say that I do NOT support abortion in the vast majority of the cases, though. Not because it's any more wrong than killing an equally aware creature of a different species, but because it's ridiculously irresponsible, inconsiderate, and ignorantly selfish--just like killing a bug for no reason at all.

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